What's on your mind?

The main forum where you can talk about the festival - from the line-ups to camping advice and everything in between. Also forum for generally chatting and talking about things.
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Phierstarter
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:06 pm

Zook wrote:she probably had a pain in her bollox
I know i would.

46.9% didn't vote, 25.6% voted conservative, 25.5% voted authoritarian conservative.
~1.5% economically libertarian, ~0.5% moderately collective libertarian.
And the runner up won.

Not much to be inspired about.
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Dick Jones
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:14 pm

Yeah I don't blame her for sloping off that night. Must have been an incredibly bitter pill to swallow. Her supporters deserved a few words maybe, but the way I saw it, it was the global media she didn't want to talk to, not her supporters in the room. That is perfectly acceptable.

Plus she probably swallowed a few actual pills aswell once the result came in.

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Zook
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:17 pm

few E

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Lola
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:42 pm

I don't always agree with her politics but I really admire the fact she was able to deliver that concession speech at all let alone one where she had to concede to someone like that

If I were her, you'd be thinking, 'Fuck this'. She's devoted her entire life to public service and this was her chance and my heart breaks thinking about how she must feel. She's entitled to give up

It'll be a long time before there is another female candidate which makes me really, really sad

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bartleby
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:58 pm

I dont think the fact that shes a woman played that big a role. She was just a horrible candidate and the Democrats should never have picked her.

Most talk against her is her trustworthiness and her corporate links (though how Trump gets a pass there I dunno)

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Dick Jones
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:08 pm

bartleby wrote:I dont think the fact that shes a woman played that big a role. She was just a horrible candidate and the Democrats should never have picked her.

Most talk against her is her trustworthiness and her corporate links (though how Trump gets a pass there I dunno)
Of course it did. Did you see the graph comparing democratic turnout in 08 and 12 between 16. There was a massive drop. If you think that was simply because of her trustworthiness and corporate links, you should, y'know, think again. They had a huge part to play, yes, but don't underestimate the underlying sexism too.

Like I said yesterday, imo there are a lot of people for whom absolutely anything (eg Trump) is preferable to the most powerful person in the world being a woman.

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Phierstarter
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:18 pm

Yes, but also if people feel she wasn't charismatically the woman for the job, doesn't mean they would feel that way about all women.
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Eucrid
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:28 pm

Dick Jones wrote:Of course it did. Did you see the graph comparing democratic turnout in 08 and 12 between 16. There was a massive drop. If you think that was simply because of her trustworthiness and corporate links, you should, y'know, think again. They had a huge part to play, yes, but don't underestimate the underlying sexism too.
Its hard to tell how much it hurt her. There was also a boost she got from making history, first woman POTUS angle. That definitely energised some female voters.

I was just listening to a podcast about it there and they were saying she had no office at all in a lot of the rust belt states she lost that have been blue since 2000. That sort of arrogance cost her a lot more than anything else.

I think there is a lot of sexism wrapped up in this campaign but I'm not sure its as direct as "I'm not voting for a woman". America isn't that different in terms of gender equality to most of western Europe and we've seen plenty of woman leaders here. To me the insidious sexism of "oh its just locker room talk" etc is the real revelation of this election. I never want to hear another claim of "rape culture isn't real" after this.

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bartleby
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:44 pm

The Republicans love that Palin one, theyd have been happy to have her in the white house so i really dont think her sex was all that big a factor. Yes there will of course be some idiots who dont want a woman in charge but id imagine its relatively small these days.

Like Eucrid says her, and the whole party, fucked up leaving the average joe behind. Surely they should have seen Sanders making a big impact with them and thought it would be a good idea to have a few on side, same when Trump got big boosts by pandering to them.

I dont really get why they didnt give Bernie Sanders VP on her card. The democrats were torn between the two very closely and he could have gotten a lot of the "anti-establishment" vote on side.

shivo
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:11 pm

The whole love affair with Palin suggests to me that Hillary's surname was more an issue than her gender.

Back in the era when Bill was in charge, the republicans were the self proclaimed "family values" party. When the whole Lewinsky business unfolded, they went mental with it. It was used as a stick to beat Bill at every single opportunity. With the repub PR machine overdrive they had Bill on the ropes and they threw everything at him. It didn't matter how true it was. There was hatred there because he was making a mockery of these oh-so-dear "family values".
Middle America hated Bill Clinton. And by extension, his wife.

It's irrelevant that the moral bar has lowered in the interim - even before trump lowered it even further - They hated the Clintons. Not necessarily for his affair any more. But for everything and anything. And when Hillary entered the race there was a huge base that were never going to vote for her, regardless of the opponent. (As we've clearly seen).

Biggy Shackleton
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:47 pm

Dick Jones wrote:
bartleby wrote:I dont think the fact that shes a woman played that big a role. She was just a horrible candidate and the Democrats should never have picked her.

Most talk against her is her trustworthiness and her corporate links (though how Trump gets a pass there I dunno)
Of course it did. Did you see the graph comparing democratic turnout in 08 and 12 between 16. There was a massive drop. If you think that was simply because of her trustworthiness and corporate links, you should, y'know, think again. They had a huge part to play, yes, but don't underestimate the underlying sexism too.

Like I said yesterday, imo there are a lot of people for whom absolutely anything (eg Trump) is preferable to the most powerful person in the world being a woman.
It's a bit of a leap to point to low turn out as an indicator of prevailing sexism in America.
She just didn't enthuse enough undecideds to go out and vote, and was straight up reviled by others.
Far more to do with her surname as shivo said.
America wanted a change. She wasn't offering any and she did nothing to expose trumps claims to the contrary on his own behalf.

It's easy enough today to say fuck, America is one big backwater, sexist, racially divided country.
It does have huge problems, but it's easy to forget that they've just had a black president for the last 8 years too... and re-elected him in 2012 with over 70m votes, the largest popular vote in history.

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LordPercy
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:08 pm

Biggy Shackleton wrote:It's a bit of a leap to point to low turn out as an indicator of prevailing sexism in America.
She just didn't enthuse enough undecideds to go out and vote, and was straight up reviled by others.
Far more to do with her surname as shivo said.
America wanted a change. She wasn't offering any and she did nothing to expose trumps claims to the contrary on his own behalf.

It's easy enough today to say fuck, America is one big backwater, sexist, racially divided country.
It does have huge problems, but it's easy to forget that they've just had a black president for the last 8 years too... and re-elected him in 2012 with over 70m votes, the largest popular vote in history.
I'd agree with the above. I think its a bit simplistic to just blame sexism, there's no doubt it was a factor for some but it does seem to be a lot more to do with that poll I mentioned a week or two ago where 60% of voters don't feel either party represents them.
Not organising in the rust belt and then loosing those states is more telling of where things fell down.

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Phierstarter
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:14 pm

Article about Facebook's role in the result
https://theintercept.com/2016/11/10/fac ... lf-better/
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snips
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:15 pm

bartleby wrote:I dont think the fact that shes a woman played that big a role. She was just a horrible candidate and the Democrats should never have picked her.

Most talk against her is her trustworthiness and her corporate links (though how Trump gets a pass there I dunno)
Nah I always thought the closet sexism would hurt her not to the extent of her losing but still. It's not just mouthbreathing Trump supporters with that prejudice unfortunately.

There's no words that can give justice to just how fucked up this actually is. 2016 is officially the year the world went bonkers.

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Phierstarter
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Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:44 pm

Another wise but apologist take on the blame game
https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09/dem ... of-brexit/
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maradara
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Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:37 am

Talking heads on the news have been following a pattern. A smug Republican and some still absolutely shocked everyone else.
There's a heap of blame being dished about. White women, low turn out etc. 20 mil less democratic votes than 2008

Biggy Shackleton
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Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:00 am

2016 strikes again. RIP Leonard Cohen.

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Phierstarter
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Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:07 am

maradara wrote:Talking heads on the news have been following a pattern. A smug Republican and some still absolutely shocked everyone else.
There's a heap of blame being dished about. White women, low turn out etc. 20 mil less democratic votes than 2008
Little mention of the American, and people, as a whole.
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LordPercy
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Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:33 am

Biggy Shackleton wrote:2016 strikes again. RIP Leonard Cohen.
Got to see him twice since he camd back and if I seen him earlier on in his comeback I'd probably have gone to more of the gigs. Amazing performer.

I'm not a crier but I was gone to the bar and ended up stood on my own rooted to the spot while he sang That's no way to say Goodbye and started welling up. When I got back to the wife she had been crying and so had a good many of the crowd.

Fuck you 2016!

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mooch
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Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:26 am

Zook wrote:i think it just dawned on me today that it actually happened

yesterday was like a dream
this keeps happening me. i see footage of him ranting from a few weeks ago, listen to his nasally voice & realise he's the fucking president.

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