Official Gym Thread

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Biggy Shackleton
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Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:08 pm

Ah there's not a whole lot wrong with that tbh is there? You'd know which guy was the boxer, but i've seen worse from pro-boxers too.
I don't know a whole lot about Chris Van Heerden either though... maybe that's the point.

I just don't see the prospect as farcical as most people seem to. Sure wasn't that where the idea for MMA came from to begin with... somebody wanted to know how would a sumo wrestler get on against a kick boxer?

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Dick Jones
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Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:12 pm

Ha yeah UFC 1 was a karate guy vs a dude with one boxing glove and one bare fist.

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Fred__Elliott
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Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:29 pm

Biggy Shackleton wrote:
Ah there's not a whole lot wrong with that tbh is there? You'd know which guy was the boxer, but i've seen worse from pro-boxers too.
I don't know a whole lot about Chris Van Heerden either though... maybe that's the point.

I just don't see the prospect as farcical as most people seem to. Sure wasn't that where the idea for MMA came from to begin with... somebody wanted to know how would a sumo wrestler get on against a kick boxer?
well, McGregor released edited footage a few months before that came out which showed a different story and Van Heerden (former Welterweight champ) went mental, saying that that wasnt how the sparring went

McGregor is displaying very poor boxing fundamentals, poor head movement on McGregor's part (he's reacting after he's already been hit, not being able to lay a glove on Van Heerden at times. theres a massive difference in footwork. ring cutting etc.

Look at him trying to land shots on Van Heerden, and then tell me how he is going to do anything against the best defensive boxer in the world? And it's not something that is going to make a massive difference, even with a few months training camp in a singular discipline

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Fred__Elliott
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Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:33 pm

And I'm saying this from the point of view that I dont think McGregor is serious when talking about the fight and is using it to get/keep his name in the mainstream. I'd love to see him fight Mayweather for the spectacle of it!

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LordPercy
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Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:40 pm

Biggy Shackleton wrote:
Ah there's not a whole lot wrong with that tbh is there? You'd know which guy was the boxer, but i've seen worse from pro-boxers too.
I don't know a whole lot about Chris Van Heerden either though... maybe that's the point.

I just don't see the prospect as farcical as most people seem to. Sure wasn't that where the idea for MMA came from to begin with... somebody wanted to know how would a sumo wrestler get on against a kick boxer?
It's evolved into it's own set of skills though hasn't it, is it not more akin these days to putting a decathlete up against a specialist in one of the sports

Biggy Shackleton
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Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:02 pm

LordPercy wrote:
Biggy Shackleton wrote:
Ah there's not a whole lot wrong with that tbh is there? You'd know which guy was the boxer, but i've seen worse from pro-boxers too.
I don't know a whole lot about Chris Van Heerden either though... maybe that's the point.

I just don't see the prospect as farcical as most people seem to. Sure wasn't that where the idea for MMA came from to begin with... somebody wanted to know how would a sumo wrestler get on against a kick boxer?
It's evolved into it's own set of skills though hasn't it, is it not more akin these days to putting a decathlete up against a specialist in one of the sports
Other lads here would answer that better than me, but it'd seem its evolved to a point now where a good base coat of Brazilian Ju-Jitsu has to be your starting point these days, or you'll only go so far, and from there you've either got an improved ground game from a wrestling background, or stand up skills, kickboxers/brawlers and the odd points karate kid.
And the longer i watch the sport, the more i find i enjoy watching fighters who are good at grappling/in the clinch. Some of that stuff can be so tactical.

But fighters still come into it with very differing singular styles and then broaden from there and its usually BJJ they go to first. For me that's the hook of the sport. When you see some lad do something like willfully lie down on his back and say come at me bro, or drop to the ground, and spin into some guys ankles, you know you're in for something you won't see in any other sport. It does make fights.

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Fred__Elliott
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Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:10 pm

I'm only an armchair watcher but I love watching someone knowledgeable about the ground game go in depth into it, As Biggy said its generally BJJ and Wrestling for the ground. Kickboxing, Muay Thai and Boxing for the stand up would be what most strikers focus on in a training camp. ITs evolved to a state where you have to be very good in all aspects now, rather than 1 discipline vs another as when it started out.

The reason BJJ is so prominent is that it offers so many opportunities to both submit an opponent from different positions and defend against your typical wrestling groundgame. Being able to defend when you're taken down and knowing what your opponent is trying to set up is vital. The success Royce Gracie had in the early days against guys much bigger than him (there were no weight classes) opened peoples eyes. Its the reason John Kavanagh is involved in the sport. Of course, if you can stop the fight going to the ground, as McGregor has been relatively successful in doing so far in his career in the UFC, then it doesnt matter too much. People highlight his lack of a ground game, and I would genuinely like to see how good he is on the ground as it might surprise people. Not against Khabib though

One of my favourite fights last year was Gunnar against Maia. As Keith say, the more you see it the more you appreciate it. If I wasnt such a lazy armchair cunt I think I would take up BJJ


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dwayne
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:30 am

Just joined up a new football team, played my first match with them on Saturday. There's not many quality players on the team, and we'd only 12 players total so just the one sub. I played right wing, and didn't really do much.

We were 5-0 down at HT, having conceded 3 from corners. They had a major height advantage, 3 players over 6'4" and noone on our team above 6'. So second half, we just held them at all corners and free-kicks. Lost 8-0 but none of them were set-pieces at least. They'd one absolute prick on their team though, an English guy. Was already mouthy all match, telling us we were shite, telling us we couldn't play football, calling us fucking wankers if we cleared it too far out of play ('cause someone would have to go get the ball), etc....second half he went mental any time someone would put a hand on him at a corner. Absolutely roaring that we were cheats and running over to the ref a few times to tell him to watch out for us. This was all when we were 5, 6, 7 goals down.

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maradara
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:26 am

punch him in the face?

Rob
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:06 am

He sounds like he had a lot of joy in his life

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stateofyouboy
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:04 am

is this in china?!

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dwayne
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:17 pm

In Hong Kong.....majority of the people playing in the league would be Western/British finance types.

Shatners Bassoon
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:23 pm

dwayne wrote:In Hong Kong.....majority of the people playing in the league would be Western/British finance types.
Aka: wankers

The Degale v Jack fight was great

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maradara
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:29 pm

playing football with a new crowd tomorrow. have a feeling they're mostly english

haven't been able to get used to the haggling/arguing mentality of the lads i play with locally. everything is an argument and a negotiation.
free kick? f*ck you, i'll give you a corner
my head has been wrecked. no flow to the games

Lumbo
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:32 pm

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:39 pm

HA. I started back playing ball last week. Everyone is as unfit as me. The biggest argument was about who was getting in goal next.

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dwayne
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:33 pm

We're bottom of division two with 0 points after 12 matches it seems! Great going; http://www.legalleague.com.hk/

That team of cunts we played on Saturday are top of the table.

Think the league splits in two at some point soon, and we'll drop to division 3.

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Dick Jones
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Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:48 am

Played 12 won 0 :-D

Well done for making up the numbers anyway!

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voidoid
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:44 pm

Fred__Elliott wrote:I'm only an armchair watcher but I love watching someone knowledgeable about the ground game go in depth into it, As Biggy said its generally BJJ and Wrestling for the ground. Kickboxing, Muay Thai and Boxing for the stand up would be what most strikers focus on in a training camp. ITs evolved to a state where you have to be very good in all aspects now, rather than 1 discipline vs another as when it started out.

The reason BJJ is so prominent is that it offers so many opportunities to both submit an opponent from different positions and defend against your typical wrestling groundgame. Being able to defend when you're taken down and knowing what your opponent is trying to set up is vital. The success Royce Gracie had in the early days against guys much bigger than him (there were no weight classes) opened peoples eyes. Its the reason John Kavanagh is involved in the sport. Of course, if you can stop the fight going to the ground, as McGregor has been relatively successful in doing so far in his career in the UFC, then it doesnt matter too much. People highlight his lack of a ground game, and I would genuinely like to see how good he is on the ground as it might surprise people. Not against Khabib though

One of my favourite fights last year was Gunnar against Maia. As Keith say, the more you see it the more you appreciate it. If I wasnt such a lazy armchair cunt I think I would take up BJJ
Little late to the discussion but thought I'd chime in. I actually go on quite a big ramble. The last paragraph at least has a worthwhile point.

With every separate discipline you have different rules for competing so each one ends up with some odd practices that work for that sport but would be impractical in a fight situation. The UFC in its first inception looked to remove as many of these oddities and impractical practices by removing as many rules as possible.

The Gracies took traditional Jiu Jitsu and over a generation morphed it into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I couldn't tell you the big differences between the two but the most important thing is that BJJ was trained "live" against resisting opponents. A technique either worked or it didn't work, no room for bullshit. All of the dominate styles (Boxing, Muai Thai, Wrestling, BJJ) have this in common. Any discipline that didn't was quickly dismissed as bullshit.

BJJ first and foremost is a self defense art. It's trained in a Gi (Judo pyjamas) and the primary focus is to keep yourself safe. Having a Gi on actually makes you more vulnerable as you can be controlled, tied up and choked unconscious with it. From standing it very much resembles Judo but with less hip tosses (no ippons, and you expose your back). Another concept that it does well is it's utilisation of distance management, if the attacker is too far away or too close, they can't do any significant damage with strikes. Break down their posture and the person on top can't put any power into their strikes and can't do any damage (see Mendes-McGregor).

The importance of BJJ level can get overstated quite a bit in the UFC. Belts are only awarded for Gi Jiu-Jitsu (outside of a few schools) so a world champion black belt isn't necessarily going to transfer over as their style may rely too heavily on the Gi. There are whole systems like worm-guard, lasso-guard and spider-guard that are utterly unworkable once you’ve no jacket to grip on to and control.

The Gracies were involved in the running of the early UFCs and it was a very successful showcase for BJJ. For a while they avoided inviting other submission grapplers and cemented Gracie Jiu Jitsu as the most effective martial art. There were no big visible competitions in the West for Catch Wrestling or Pro-Wrestling and there were plenty of fixes and a blurred line between sports entertainment, so BJJ entered that void. They also purposefully put in the smaller Royce instead of the family Champion Rickson.

BJJ is undoubtedly an incredibly effective art and a base level is absolutely required. A good base knowledge can negate a large skill discrepancy (see Ryan Hall v Artem Lobov) which makes the work of Maia and Nurmagedmenov all the more impressive. Nurmagedmenov by the way is a Combat Sambo fighter (MMA with a Gi jacket as far as I can tell). BJJ like any self respecting “live” martial art readily absorbs any effective techniques from other disciplines so a lot of submission grappling techniques all get referred to as BJJ.

For stand-up grappling it’s predominately Wrestling, or aspects of it. Freestyle Wrestling if you’re shooting in or dropping down for legs, Greco Roman if it’s upper body throws, limited bit of Judo but you’d want to take them by surprise and/or be very good. Muai Thai is also incorporated for knees or elbows in the clinch and a limited bit of dirty boxing (uppercuts being most effective).

Outside of the clinch Muai Thai can be a bit limited due to its rule set. In traditional Muai Thai you have a square on and tall stance. It allows you to keep your weight balanced so any leg can be quickly raised for a check/knee/switch kick. Evasive footwork or movement is not used much, points are not scored for clean accurate hits but for “effective” hits that knock your opponent off balance and prevent them from answering back straight away with their own attack. What you do get though are extremely strong round kicks that turn to whole hip around and slam the shin through your opponent like a bat, knees driven through your gut and elbows that slice eyebrows open. The wide stance restricts your movement though and leaves you prone to a fighter that cuts angles and also to double leg takedowns.

On the other hand Boxing’s “bladed” side on stance makes for a small profile and narrower target (see also TKD/ karate). Big gloves allow you to use a shell defense, clinching up causes a reset. I actually don’t know all that much about Boxing as I’ve never really watched it and find it a bit daft and limited now. As gruelling as Wrestling is though, 12 rounds at Boxing pace is exhausting and needs huge stamina. Boxing will give you fast hands, good head movement, parries, feints, footwork. The small gloves, kicks to those heavy front legs, knees to a bobbing/weaving opponent makes MMA boxing a completely different game to traditional boxing. Hell, those big daft looking waist bands protect half the body.

MMA is still a very young sport. Compromises to the no-rules had to be made and an MMA game has appeared as a result. GSP came from a karate background and became one of the best MMA wrestlers (and jabbers) through his smooth mixing with striking. Jon Jones, a BBJ white belt and high school wrestler out grappled an Olympic level wrestler. Young fighters are appearing who don’t have backgrounds outside of MMA. SBG on the Long-Mile Rd have a kids programme run by Owen Roddy that looks like a Medieval army in training.

The different disciplines only really give us a vocabulary, no single discipline has been adopted wholesale but many have provided techniques, some of the better techniques were already being shared/adapted by a number of disciplines. Techniques from disciplines that were once wholly disregarded are being incorporated and effectively used by well rounded opponents now.

There still will be those guys that are very highly skilled in particular aspects and techniques that will make the gap between their opponents look huge. It’s the old Bruce Lee adage of “Don’t fear the man who practices 10,000 different kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times” Only trouble is, if you're wholly ignorant to too many of those 10,00o different techniques you run the risk of being caught by one.

Joe Rogan has always done a great job of making the ground game accessible, he’s also very knowledgeable with striking (Ronda Rousey comments aside). He’s never fought MMA though and that huge grey area between Striking and the Ground game that makes MMA distinct to everything else doesn't always get commented on. With the increased use of ex-fighters doing commentary though, viewers are going to get better and better explanations of the techniques that are particular to MMA. There's also the whole aspect of fighting against the cage, which is not a part of any other sport that I can think of.
Last edited by voidoid on Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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maradara
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:09 pm

I found the commentary of the last fight I watched a bit strange. Was like listening to commentary of a skater on a half pipe or an Olympian on the mat, in that all I heard from the co commentator was the names of the moves being dished out. Not really too much insight into the strategy

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